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ALIVE Active Shooter Training Podcast Episode 002 – Shooting in Odessa, TX – Secret Service and FBI stats

ALIVE Active Shooter Training Podcast Episode 002 – Shooting in Odessa, TX – Secret Service and FBI stats

We talk about the shooting in Odessa, TX and how ALIVE Active Shooter Training could have helped, and review stats from Secret Service and FBI reports on active shooters and mass attacks.

Welcome to the ALIVE Active Shooter Survival Training Program where the experts break down active shooter incidents to discuss and assess each event to help you stay ALIVE. This is your host security expert and creator of the ALIVE Active Shooter Survival Training program. Michael Julian.

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ALIVE active shooter training man with gun Shooting in Odessa, TX

ALIVE active shooter training man with gun

Michael Julian  

Welcome back to the ALIVE Active Shooter Survival Training Program. It is a podcast. I am joined here with my co hosts, will  introduce them real quick. Let’s start with Rodney Andreasen. He is an Emergency Management Director.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Good morning. How are things in California?

 

Michael Julian  

Well, there are a lot better than they are out there. where you’re at in Florida, I think although it looks like you guys may be dodging a bullet. Yeah.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Yeah. Literally speaking. We’ve been very lucky. Very lucky.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, I don’t think the Bahamas were quite as lucky. 

 

Rodney Andreasen  

No.

 

Michael Julian  

Let me also go now to Lawrence Borgens and other co-host. Lawrence, how are you?

 

Lawrence Borgens  

Doing good… doing good. I’m excited for… I’m excited for teaching people how to save their own lives using the ALIVE Active Shooter Training Program.

 

Michael Julian  

Excellent. Hey, Mark Gillespie also he’s in Texas. How are you, buddy?

 

Mark Gillespie  

Doing great, thanks Mike.

 

Michael Julian  

Good. And let’s go then to Ben Gothard who is muted. How you doing Ben 

 

Ben Gothard  

Doing great Michael… doing great and glad we could assemble this panel of experts today.

 

Michael Julian  

As am I and this is the second installment started last Tuesday. This is gonna to be number two and recap of the program for you guys who might be joining us for the first time. This podcast, this program is intended to help educate our viewers and the world on Active Shooter Programs. We go we’re gonna delve into the actual incidences, break them down talk about what happened. We will be having some guests on the show different experts, survivors of active shooter events, so forth. Today we’re gonna talk about the Odessa, middle and shooting that just took place on Saturday. And then we’re going to go into some stats based on reports from the United States Secret Service,  and the FBI covering back from 2016 to 2017 and then last year in 2018. So as many of you are probably aware, on Saturday morning, or Saturday, there was another shooting in the Odessa Midland Texas area, and it was August 31. Eight people were killed and there was 25 injured. What we’ve learned about that incident so far is that and we’re not gonna.. we’re gonna stay away from using names and photos and video as much as possible of these guys. We are, we are not gonna glorify or make celebrities out of these cowards, these people who apparently don’t have the coping skills to deal with the issues in their lives so they.. they turn their angst on and negative… negativity out on the rest of the world rather than dealing with them themselves. But on August 31, in the Odessa, Midland area of Texas, like I said, there was a guy that was fired from his job earlier that day, and he went on a shooting spree that lasted actually about two hours, which is not necessarily unusual when there’s what I call a roving or mobile active shooter.

The same thing happened in New Zealand when the shooter hit two different mosques. But this thing lasted a couple of hours and ended up out in front of the El Paso Walmart or excuse me, and it out in front of a movie theater, where he ended up in engaging law enforcement or was engaged by law enforcement when they.. they hit his vehicle surrounded him and there was a shootout and he was killed. What we know about this incident is it had started at 3:17 pm during a traffic stop by a state trooper after I don’t know if he’d left work or he’d already left and gone home or whatever. During the traffic stop in his Honda, he opened fire on the officer and after a failure to signal left which thank goodness that trooper was… was doing his job. Even something as minor is that. The suspect then continued to Odessa and shot another person on the interstate. He abandoned his Honda and hijack the United States Postal Service vehicle. He killed the letter carrier a Female and then continue to drive and shoot people before police cornered and killed him in the parking lot of the synergy movie theater. What we know about the victims is there… there were said that it said seven people were killed. I believe that may have gone up to 8, 17 more were hospitalized for for injuries. Among the injured are three police officers. State… Texas State Trooper Midland police officer now Odessa Police Officer. The youngest victim, wounded was a 17 month old child she apparently had got hit with shrapnel in the face and put a hole in her lip and knocked her two front teeth out. She is expected to make a full recovery. The postal worker was 29 years old. So the perpetrator what we know is the day after the shooting… excuse me…. the day. Oh, excuse me… the day after the shooting police identify the shooter as a 36 year old male not gonna say his name. He had been arrested in Waco in 2001 trespassing and evading arrest. So, he did have prior felony or prior conviction, but it was not violent. And we’re going to get into some of the statistics regarding that where we have seen that many of the shooters actually did have criminal and felony convictions and many of them were violent offenses.

 

Michael Julian  

The gunman had earlier failed gun purchase background check in Texas. And but did end up with a firearm. The agents search the shooters home located in Odessa neighbor said his house had no no basic utilities and if anybody saw the video, it was… it was a shack really… it was a tin and wood shack that the guy lived in with very few windows. Apparently he used to shoot at animals in the middle of the night from on top of his… his home and so they got I was definitely a little bit happy with… with that sort of thing. He left no online footprint. I think the last photograph they found of him was from 2012 as a Facebook photo, but he had, he had no post. He grew up in Lorena, Texas, where he attended a community college in Waco. So, what we’ve gotten from this is but you know, the guy based on his living conditions and so forth, there was some… there was some mental illness. They weren’t terribly specific about that. But they definitely said that based on interactions with neighbors and in his work, he had some stuff going on. The governor when he did his.. his… when he talked on to the media, he said that clearly based on what they learned there were several issues prior leading up to and that this was not a sudden event. He did not wake up one day and decide to go on a shooting spree. And one of the things that we’ve learned that we teach in the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program is that violence is a process. It’s… this type of violence… mass violence is a process. It’s not an event. And what we’ve seen from studying so many prior active shooter incidents is that these things start sometimes years in advance. For instance, the Columbine Shooters, they had been planning this for a couple of years.

So, this guy over the course of two hours, shot and killed seven or eight people, depending on the new story you look at. And, you know, but so many of the different indicators were there. And unfortunately, the indicators being there and people seeing them but maybe not knowing how to recognize them is part of the reason that this possibly could not have been stopped earlier on. And I don’t know much about the guy’s private life. for, you know, family or anything, but the people that he came into contact with the most probably the people he worked with would have been the ones that would have seen those signs. Again, like we say in the program, you know, our society is such that now we are supposed to be so understanding and tolerant of everybody’s behavior that many times that goes unrecognized or unspoken of  and you know, we talk and all you guys know from the from the program, you know, see something, say something and Rodney you were just commenting on that. What is it you’re involved in as far as the see something, say something?

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Actually, I’m co-chair for the state, regional domestic security Task Force and that’s one of our outreach is and Mike you bring up some really good points on that. It made the guys sitting on top of a tin shed or his shack at night shooting animals. To me that would be just a little unusual and I don’t see why some of the people around him said “Hey, something’s not right here.” And you look at the conditions he’s living in, you look at the things he’s exhibited. And it just begs for somebody to say something. But I think like you were saying, as a society, we’ve gotten so afraid to say anything, because if we do, then we’re spying on somebody, or that we’re, you know, trying to be, have our phobias come out, have seen a phobia a fear of everything around us. But times have changed. We have got to start being more aggressive with this because the law enforcement can’t do it all. And the only time somebody says anything, they go, Wow, I knew that God was going to do something someday. What if you knew that that why didn’t you say something in the first place? 

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

That’s  the problem we have.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, that’s happened so frequently after the fact. Like in San Bernardino. When the FBI talked to the neighbors of the husband and wife shooters, they said, Did you see any unusual activity or behavior and they said, Yeah, you know, we were alarmed. And we were freaked out and this and that the other and they asked me is, well, why didn’t you say anything? And they said, Well, we didn’t want to, we don’t want people to think that we were… we were racist because they were Muslim or we were anti, you know, Anti-Muslim or Anti-Middle Eastern or whatever. So…

 

Rodney Andreasen  

And if you go back, I mean, look at the simple crime prevention if you see a crime, you’re going to report it, somebody breaking your car, you don’t report it, or you see somebody breaking your neighbor’s house, you’ve got to report it. Well, the same should be said for anything that’s a little unusual at a school, a church, a hospital or anything. And I think the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program really, really hits on that talking about these indicators that pathway to violence.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, definitely a little bit more information I just found on the internet. The perpetrator turned up at work that morning and raised he worked at… he worked at an oil field products or journey oilfield services. He showed up in rage. He was then fired. He left, he called local police and FBI rambling before the shooting began. So there’s a clear indicator that there was something going on mentally with this guy. His mental state of mind was not that of a well, what what we’d like to refer to as a sane or, you know, someone with the cognitive capacity to know but between right or wrong, which is certainly not a past, but that is gonna go towards the conversation we’re going to have shortly on the statistics that the FBI and Secret Service came up with. So, you know, unfortunately, here we go again, and literally, it’s every week, I’ve got Google alerts on my email, I get these Google Alerts every day, and this, this stuff is just happening and, you know, we’ve said it before. A lot of these things actually happen, but they may not quite fit, you know, neatly into the FBI is definition of active shooter or they don’t qualify as a mass killer. which is I think mass killer by definition for of the government is four or more people. Well, if an active shooter shoots seven people, but only one dies, there’s still an active shooter. They just don’t qualify as mass killer so they’re not getting the press coverage that so many of these things that everybody learns about like this one gets. But the point is it’s, it’s happening so so frequently.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

And Michael, you said something about the mobility. This was you’d seen this before in New Zealand. There was also a case in South Alabama a number of years ago and Dale County, Houston County, where a gentleman was driving all over the place and shooting people as he went. And they chased him over several counties and he was finally some dude, and I do believe terminated at that point, but that may be a new tactic and somebody’s going to learn from that.

 

Michael Julian  

We do one thing I have definitely noticed. That is I’ve been putting a lot of thought into because the the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program was based on the information we had five years ago when I created it. But I’m seeing a trend and that is less and less of these guys are killing themselves at the conclusion of these events. So I don’t know what it is that’s changing. You know, there’s several psych… psychiatric professionals, one in particular that I listened to, that talks about this being a riot mentality. And the riot mentality is there’s a group of people that may think a certain way, but nobody’s going to stand up on a soapbox and shout that, hey, you know, this is how I feel. But then one person does it. They get the gumption and they do it. And so the first person doing it is now been done. Well, the second guy who never would have been that bold to actually do it, he goes, Well wait, now it’s been done. So I’m going to do it. So he does it. And then the third person goes, Well, I never would have been the first or second person but they did it. So yeah, I’m going to do it too. I’m pretty Soon all these people start following this behavior because it’s now I wouldn’t say acceptable, but it’s out there. It’s being done and somebody pulled the trigger. No pun intended to do it first. And I think Columbine is is that event that started this trend. Mark, where are you from Midland? How far away? Are you in Texas?

 

Mark Gillespie  

I’m, uh, I’m pretty far. It’s, I think, like four or five hours.

 

Michael Julian  

Okay. It’s Western Texas.Correct? 

 

Mark Gillespie  

Correct. Yeah.

 

Michael Julian  

Well, it’s still hidden, close enough to home. anytime something happens in Southern California or California in general, it’s kind of like, well, here we go again. And based on the statistics, we’re going to go over, actually, Texas has the highest number of quote unquote, qualified active shootings in the last I think two or three years. And for the personality type, termed analyzer or a nap… yeah… The kind that loves data. We’re going to show… I’m going to show some statistics based on the based on these reports today. That does actually point out to Texas is… is the number one. I don’t know if it was last year the year before.

 

So, you know, jumping into the statistics. The US Secret Service does something called the maps report and its mass attacks in public spaces. And the one… the most recent one on 2018 says US Department of Homeland Security, but I believe it was created by the FBI for… no.. yeah.. no, I’m sorry… US Secret Service does the report. And it’s the US Secret Service national Threat Assessment Center MTAC. They put up this maps Report. I’m going to share this real quick with you guys.

 

 You see that?

 

Mark Gillespie  

Yeah.

 

Michael Julian  

Nope, that’s the wrong one.

 

Getting used to zoom.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

My might take it down to 100% view.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah. All right. Let’s see so you guys can see this. See that? Okay. 

 

Intro  

Yep.

 

Michael Julian  

So, some of the statistics in this. Mass violence is a rare event, I guess, per capita. You could say that, but it sure certainly seems like it’s happening all the time, especially when you get these alerts. It’s happening pretty darn frequently, but the perpetrators now they say they share certain characteristics… excuse me… but unfortunately, they don’t share enough that we can actually build a profile, that we can start noticing these things. But one of the personality or psychological traits, or some of them that we’ve definitely noticed is it states that the other often hopeless and harboring grievances that are frequently related to work school finances or interpersonal relationships. They feel victimized, which we’ve seen several times, especially in the younger, the younger people doing this and sympathizing with others who perceived to be similar, similarly mistreated. Now, that’s something that I was kind of unaware of, but I’ve seen this more and more. There are people apparently that will do this, based on other people’s suffering. So I don’t know if they’re empathic or what but they see other people that are being affected. I think the New Zealand shooter might fall into this because he was supposedly doing this for his culture that he felt was being victimized by the immigrants and the immigrant culture that was coming into his area in New Zealand. They feel an indifference to life and often subsequently, they killed themselves by suicide. That is something that was certainly a trend and we saw, you know, over 50% in the in prior incidences were happening. So these people were literally suicidal going into it. And, yes.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

So, you mentioned how there’s less and less of them that are committing suicide that are ending their own life. Once the police show up, that sort of thing, do you think that the prevalence of them being eager kind of to fight with the cops is could possibly just be a version of suicide by cop?

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, absolutely. I think that maybe the notoriety you know, before we talked about it being a power and control thing, the reason that… they… they kill themselves is to retain the power and the control by not being taken into custody or not being killed by someone else. But, you know, a lot of people think this is about notoriety and about becoming famous. And that could be one way to put it, but really at the base underneath that is still it’s having power and control. But maybe it’s possible they’re moving in a direction where they think that the notoriety is the power… is the power and control so that you know, if they go out in a blaze of glory, then they’re gonna be remembered more as a hero because luckily, thankfully, our society in not wanting to make these people celebrity and with the no notoriety movement out there, which I’m glad that somebody is doing that and it’s actually putting pressure on the media to stop digging into these people’s lives and making them celebrities but maybe with a now their names are not being said as much and the pictures are not being said… shown on on the cameras as much maybe this is their way of still keeping the power control and somehow being creating the sensational… sensationalism that is been mitigated or… or you know, taken down a notch by the no notoriety movement.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

So, I noticed regarding that for a second, I noticed that the Odessa chief when he was being interviewed, made sure to not he specifically said I’m not going to say his name and so I was really glad to see that it’s about time that you know, the cops get it. They know not to give the notoriety, but doing some research on this story. I did find one TV news station website that had the guys picture and name and all of that and I, you know, the kind of one It kind of makes me want to write them a letter or something and tell them to stop doing that.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have seen others when doing press conferences, they… they do say the same thing. And I honestly think that this is going to be a huge… it’s gonna drive forward in ending these things or decreasing them by taking the power away from these guys by not making them heroes or at least celebrities, and calling them what they are. They’re cowards. You know, they’re… they’re taking the chicken shit way out of this and… and that takes the whole notoriety out of it that takes the whole power and control out of it. And if… if they think that doing this is going to get them so much coverage on the news, but now instead of good delving into their lives to find out what they had for breakfast that morning, we call them what they are, and that’s cowards hopefully it will shift their thinking and whether they’re going to want to do something like this and maybe, you know, hopefully they’ll do I don’t know what… what did people used to do in this situation when they were, you know, they felt hopeless, they, you know, they were marginalized… they, they felt lesser when they had these, these inferiority complexes or whatever I mean, you know, they’d sold or maybe they get into video games, of course… of course, there’s a big debate on the violent video games and so forth. So this may actually drive them in that direction. I don’t know. But yeah, the no notoriety movement is something I definitely support 100% because we can’t make these guys celebrities, we just can’t.

 

So let me go back to this for a second. go over a few more things. Now,

 

So the psychology one thing that I’m really fascinated by, and I’m a little shocked by his I, when I first got into this whole thing on was convinced that no sane person would go out and do this. It had to be somebody that was severely mentally ill. And then I started doing my research. And I found based on what the statistics used to be and what the reports used to say that it was not psychosis. It was not paranoid schizophrenia. That was… that was the leading factor of these things. Doctor was report three years ago, I tried to find it yesterday that stated that 25% or less, actually were suffering from some kind of clinical mental illness and only 3% were paranoid schizophrenia, psychosis, major… major mental illness. And then this most recent… this most recent report came out and it’s stating that now I think, 67% they’re calling it and my personal belief is and I’m not, you know, a trained psychiatrist, but I think because of the softening of our society I think we’re starting to just include, you know, somebody having three bad days in a row as mental illness or clinical depression or whatever. I personally believe that having a few bad days or, you know, being having some financial… being financially destitute, having some issues, your cars reported or the houses, you know, you can’t pay your mortgage or something, and it sends you into a bit of a tail emotional tailspin. I don’t know that I personally would consider that as mental illness. I think that’s just your life sucking right now. But, you know, everybody’s life sucks in from time to time in life, and i don’t i don’t know that i think it’s necessarily responsible to include that in the definition of mental illness. So now I believe that’s what’s happening. I think that they’re, that they’re starting to say, well, this guy suffered some depression last year, because his wife divorced him. I don’t know that I would necessarily… I don’t feel comfortable calling that mental illness.

So I think the statistics are starting to definitely reflect our… our including everything… including having a few bad days and mental as depression. So now they’re calling it mental illness. So the new report definitely states that it’s that and in this one mental illness plays an important but limited role in mass violence. But then it goes to say that 67% are so difficult to imagine a mentally healthy person would deliberately kill multiple strangers, which is was my belief. It is commonly assumed that all perpetrators of mass violence must be mentally ill. That… actually, I’m sorry, that’s for the… that’s from the National Council of Medical Directors Institute. So this was the one that I wanted to bring up to kind of counter what they’re being told. The FBI statistics, talks about mental illness as part of it. And so… this report goes over… Sorry to jump around here. This report goes over the 50 shootings that happened in 2016 and 2017. And I believe it was 20… Yeah… 20 in 2016 and 13 in 2017… Says one or more individuals actively engaged… engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in populated… populated area. That’s their definition. And in inherently implies a both law enforcement personnel and citizens have the potential to affect the outcome of the event based upon their responses to their situation. So that is how they define an active shooter or active killer.

 

Excluded from this report or gang and drug related shootings. Yeah, ready.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Yeah. Just something you said there, that each of those individuals, law enforcement, people, citizens, whatever, they have the ability to change the outcome based on their responses. A factor we need to look at when we talk about the program, the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program, if we train people… meet those responses in a positive way it follows suit that response will be a good outcome, would it not?

 

Michael Julian  

Absolutely. And… and the training is what’s going to make the difference. So many people do not believe or realize that they are, in fact, capable of stopping something like this. And luckily, we’re starting to see more and more of it. Like we said in the last show, two schools this year, students actually immediately reacted and went after the shooter. And though they both perished, and they would have died anyway, had they not done this, but they’ve literally saved probably dozens of people’s lives by acting. So by definition of an active shooter, it is law enforcement and civilians ability to stop the shooter themselves that puts them in that definition.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

And I will have to argue the fact that it’s more civilians in this case, anything else because law enforcement even though the great job they do, they can’t be everywhere at once. And when you especially when you’ve got a mobile shooter, then you got even double your problems.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So some of the statistics are for 2016 and 2017… 50 total… there was 943 casualties 221 of them being deaths. Law enforcement officers killed 13 of them, 20 law enforcement officers were wounded, 20 of these met the mass killing definition, meaning they killed four more people, 14 incidences ended up with exchange of gunfire between the shooter in law enforcement of all… of all the shooters in 2016 and 2017 of the 50 all were male, three of the shooters were body armor, 13 shooters committed suicide, which is a lower number than past incidences… 11 were killed by police, 8 shooters were stopped by citizens like you were saying Rodney. And I believe… I think six of those eight or maybe all eight actually were stopped by citizens with firearms legally possessed and registered firearms. And then 18 of them were apprehended… apprehended by police. And I’m sorry mass killings by definition they say is three or more people killed in an incident. The highest number is we know in 2017 50 people killed and 489 this numbers reported differently in several different ways. Over 500 is what I’ve mostly seen, but 58 were killed at the route 91 Music Festival in Las Vegas, and second highest number of casualties, 49 killed and 53 wounded occurred at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida, and we still do not… Law enforcement has not identified the motive behind this Las Vegas shooting which is it’s got everybody stumped that guy was a millionaire but obviously he had some pretty deep seated issues. So the citizen engagement was so notable in tenants and its citizens can front of the shooter eight of those instance one or more citizens safely and successfully acted in the shooting?

I guess it was the 2018 to the schools where the two students were killed all male and the spread is everywhere from… anywhere from 14 years of age to 66 years so we can’t build a profile like… like we may you know… a terrorist with a… with a bomb strapped to his chest you know, they say nine between 19 and 31 I think a male. There’s it’s so hard to identify our profile based on this. Eight at the scene before law enforcement arrived three at the scene after law enforcement arrived, so the shooters… 13 shooters committed suicide. And, you know, again, the live program, so much of the psychology that goes into what we teach. It was about getting those shooters to get there. Before now we’re seeing many of them committing these acts and then leaving we’re still seeing this long before the 10 minute mark that we talked about, but some of them have actually left and 18 shooters were apprehended by police. We know the actual areas I’m going to pull up a different… a different report that shows some of the statistics and graphs.

 

We get to the graphs here.

 

Alright, so here’s that states that it happened all over the place to Texas, Portland, Oregon all over. Interesting to know what’s going on here that this is not happening. I don’t. I would imagine somebody at the FBI or Secret Service or looking that area to find out what the story is maybe because it’s easier to relax in the states with the mountains. I have no idea… 27 of the incidents were carried out in 18 states in 20 different sites 70% occurring at places of business. So we know that’s a hotspot. Three attacks were carried out at high schools. One attack took place in a house of worship. And that’s interesting. This was just 2018 that this happened. House of worship, I believe, would have been the synagogue. No, I’m sorry. I think it was the church in South Carolina I believe guys.

 

So places of business, open spaces, schools, transportation, and how’s it working? 2017 it was to 2018 it was just the one…

 

Rodney Andreasen  

It might have been the one in Southland, Texas,

 

Sutherland Springs, Texas. That’s there we go Sutherland Springs… Thank you. 

 

Michael Julian  

So it to reinforce the 10 minute thing the majority lasted less than 5…  63% lasted less than five minutes. And then 22 between five and 14 minutes was 22%. And then 15 minutes or more was 15%. And I’m guessing those were incidents that happen like I said, these roving active killers. There was one female in 2018 and one person in a process of a gender reassignment ages were 15 to 64… 22% were found to have a history of illicit drug use or substance abuse 48% basically half at histories of criminal charges beyond minor traffic violations. And then We see 30% of those had been involved in some sort of domestic violence. And, you know, as we talked about in the program, many times these people are, you know, they may have a pre existing issues, but if they’ve got a problem, a domestic problem, or a personal issues, you know, financial or whatever, that certainly plays to sending them over the edge or getting them to the point where they would actually do something like this. At 67%, is they experienced mental health symptoms prior to the attacks. Now, that’s a little deceiving prior to the attacks, just five years, 10 years before. Suicidal thoughts, obviously were observed in many of these people… and like… yep

 

Rodney Andreasen  

talking about the mental health for a second also is I agree with you that just them saying mental health issues is a little broad as well. I think that part of the reason why we’re seeing an increase from 25 to 67% of the people being diagnosed with mental illness has to do with a broadening of the definition of mental illness. So it’d be good to get a handle on what they’re exactly talking about when it comes to that.

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, I agree with that. And… and that was my point earlier. I… I think that with the… there’s a term that’s being used, but I’m not going to use that here. The weakening of our society and the way we view people and things and behavior. I… I definitely… personally believe that it is… you know… they’re starting to include anybody that just you know, has a few bad days or had some crap in their life that send them into a little bit of a tailspin to where they were in a depressive state for a week, two weeks and you know, as we, we know, doctors are very quick to start throwing out prescriptions for antidepressants to get somebody through a hard time. You know, when I was growing up, if I was having a hard time, or, you know, my dad would say or what I was a little kid, and I would cry about something my dad and say, I’ll give you some to cry about, so knock that crap off. Well, that tough love is doesn’t exist as much as it used to. And now if we’re having a bad day or a bad week, then we get antidepressants or we’re, you know, we’re consoled maybe a little bit too much. Is it good that we become aware and sensitive to to these things? Yeah. But you know, do we really want to I’ll just say it because it’s my podcast. Do we really want to push the phi society so much that everybody having a bad day focuses on the bad day instead of focusing… focusing on getting your ass out of that bad day and muscling through it? And that may sound insensitive, but you know, let’s face it.. we didn’t have these issues before as much as we do now.

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Yeah. Michael, on the flip side of that, do you know I view it as also that we are? Basically we have desensitized our entire society starting in school for our kids, because you look back when I was in high school, and maybe Mark was in high school, one of the things that we used to do was practice Civil Defense Drills, and we were talking about the end of the world. Now, it’s just… it’s kids are so desensitized to that or they’re just, they’re not made to think something bad could happen if we don’t think it’s gonna happen. It’s not gonna happen. But on the flip side of that, even talking about the video games, and that’s one of the areas that I kind of believe in has started a lot of problems and that we have desensitize human life we have reduced it to the smallest phone where it really isn’t. It is a video game and a lot of a lot of cases.

 

Michael Julian  

Oh, definitely. And you can see that with a New Zealand Shooter though just you know, because he live streamed it, you can watch the video, just the movements of when he discarded the first shot gun and went to the next… the next weapon, it was so dramatic in the same exact form as you would see in a video game… I definitely think that is providing training. It’s providing this false reality that these guys are choosing to live in, rather than living in their lives and just sucking it up. You know, I think we’re… we’re breeding this victim mentality. Whereas, the tough love bread, a fighter mentality and the fighter mentality is Okay, you know what, I’m going to stop feeling sorry for myself. I’m going to suck it up. I’m going to pull my pants up and I’m going to take care of business. And then next thing you know, these guys feel a sense of accomplishment from muscling through it guys and gals. And now they’re maybe not as depressed anymore or maybe now they’re not you know, feeling sorry for themselves and wallowing in their own self pity.

Now, I’m not saying this to minimize the fact that some people have chemical imbalances in their brain, their serotonin, dopamine, whatever levels may be abnormally low because of whatever and some of it may be based on drug use. Those things exist. And yes, we should be sensitive to that. And yes, they should be treated. But I think we’re just using that as a catch all for anybody who’s having a few bad days or experiencing some crap in their life. And I just, my personal belief is we’re literally giving people the okay to just wallow in self pity, instead of encouraging and promoting, you know, putting your… putting your big boy you know, pulling yourself up off the ground and taking care of business, which ultimately does feel better and then you get over it and you move on. So, I’m sure some people are going to think I’m insensitive, but those are probably the people that I’m talking about are the problem in society. So it’s okay.

 

Mark Gillespie  

Well, you know, Mike, let me just add something, please. I think also that we, we tend to put so much credence in mental illness. And I think we over we overdo it. I think a lot of these people that even if they may have a mental illness, they still have the capacity and the capability to determine between right and wrong. So they get in a situation… they get into a situation where they’re loaded up, armed… armed… you know, to the thief. And they know what they’re going to do, and they do it. And yeah, they may have they may have a form of mental illness, but that doesn’t mean that they do not know what they were doing. 

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah. And I, you know, clearly we’re not qualified to define mental illness. We, you know, we ever… I have my own feelings on it and, and my understanding is you know, or at least the what I would call mental illness, in my own definition would maybe be dated back to when I was younger and I took psychology in school and I, you know, we were told that there was mental illness and then there is abnormal psychology. So, abnormal psychology might be, you know, wires are crossed, brain chemicals are bad. And so the brain does not function properly and I think that the definition they’re using mental illness literally includes minor depression that back in the day, we would just suck it up and we would we would… cause it goes away. I mean things in life change. You know, when my dad died when my mom died, I was depressed clearly that’s people deal with loss and… and grief and depression is one of the… is one of the phases of grief and… but focusing on that grief, instead of focusing on getting over that grief is just like focusing on surviving an Active Shooter as opposed to focusing on dying from the active shooter. And in the program, we all, you know, we all promote empowerment and going, “Hey, I’m not dying today, there’s no freakin way I’m letting this dude keep me from going home to the people that I care about.” So if you’re focused on survival, you’re not focused on perishing. And, again, we’re not psychiatric professionals. So, you know, we’re only qualified to talk about our own opinions, but I believe it is an epidemic in this country, especially in liberal areas where it’s all about touchy feely safe spaces. When, you know, hey, let’s everybody you know… you know, just comfort each other instead of everybody empowering each other to say, “Hey, you know what, this doesn’t define you.” Because we’re giving young people permission to… to allow themselves and based the definition of who they are on the bad things in their lives, the things that bother them, that the… That the things that you know, bring them down instead of saying, guess what you’re, you’re going to be okay.

Now let’s focus on being okay. So, anyway, let me let me just touch on a few more of these statistics real here. And then and then what I want to do is I would like to make a do a comparison of, of what this report, the Secret Service Report says. And the FBI is now defined as mental illness. And what the psychiatric professionals are saying. Now, 52% of these are based on grievances. So that goes into the first step we teach in a live is that anger and retaliation are the one of the three or four steps of or justifications in their minds for doing this. So grievances clearly to be a main motivator, 50% of them domestic situations were 22% and then workplace 11 and personal issues which is kind of a Is 22% but then they go into the mental health symptoms.

Now here it says 19%, which is one of the reasons we say these people do that and alive and then ideological. And here’s something interesting that I just found out by reading this idea, logic ideologically, there is now something called the Incel movement. And I don’t know if you guys have ever heard of this, but Incel are short for involuntarily celibate. And this is members of an internet based subculture of heterosexual males who view themselves as undesirable to females and therefore unable to establish romantic or sexual relationships to which they feel entitled. And frankly, I’d never heard of this category or subculture before, but as soon as I read it, it made me think about and I’m going to say his name… Elliot Rodger…. Elliot Rodger in Santa Barbara and I love this. He made his videos wanting to you know, carry on this legacy of terror beyond the grave, talking about the fact that he was a 22 year old virgin, he couldn’t get dates girls didn’t talk to him. He had this sense of this inferiority complex, partially based on that partially based on from what we’re what we’re learning or being told that maybe part of the things he was treated at home, he was marginalized by the by his family, but this guy was a 22 year old version and couldn’t… virgin and couldn’t get a date. So apparently he would… he would fall into this involuntarily celibate, and that was a big thing. And in his video he talked about he’s going to go to the hottest sorority on campus and slaughter every blonde, slut, quote, unquote in there. So he took his… he want… it was anger and revenge clearly, but it was based on supposedly this new ideology of being involuntarily celibate. So there’s some crossover there. But I thought that was pretty darn… pretty interesting. So here we are now giving a category or a title to guys who can’t get laid. I mean look…

 

Don’t they sell books online for you know “How to get a woman in the sack?” and I know that sounds horrible but I’d rather than read that book and get some tips on it to get a little bit of confidence to go out and start talking to women to get a date then to use this and again this goes back to coping skills and it goes back to these guys frankly just being cowards so… so instead of just you know, figuring out a way or maybe taking a class on how to have a personality or how to have the cojones to go talk to a woman. You want to go kill them, this is not an acceptable route to take if you can’t cope with your own shit. 

 

Rodney Andreasen  

I take it. Michael it begs to be discussed… then they also kills his two roommates before he went on that rampage. 

 

Michael Julian  

Now that was actually that was Joe in West Virginia… Virginia Tech. Excuse me, Virginia Tech. He killed a roommate and a visitor that came to to see that roommate. 

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Yeah, I thought I read somewhere where he had roommates that he had somehow done something to them as well before he went on a rampage. 

 

Michael Julian  

Yeah, I believe… I believe he may have threatened them. I… and I could be mistaken… I frankly, get… get them mixed up because they’re so damn many of them. It’s possible he… he… he did that or even threatened him. I know that he had been contacted by police on two different occasions, and so did show from Virginia Tech. So this guy, these guys were on the radar. They were on the radar and people knew that they were a problem. And, you know, like in the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program, we talked about how domestic violence how there was such a huge shift in law enforcement response. There used to be a domestic issue between a couple of whatever sex and the cops would arrive and to no fault of their own, they were used to basically arriving, and the woman wouldn’t press charges or the man wouldn’t press charges. So it really and things died down and it seemed like a big waste of their time. So they weren’t taking it as seriously. But then these things started happening where they… they would leave and three or four days later, the man killed the woman. And now law enforcement is being sued. And you know, it’s a big deal because they supposedly did nothing. Well, they weren’t doing nothing because they didn’t care. They were doing nothing based on what they knew from past experiences and pass calls.

Now, in many states, if cops go to a domestic violence call, somebody leaving in handcuffs, whether there’s charges and some municipalities, some… some places states will actually charge them even if the woman says I don’t want to press charges, the state will press charges, because you know, this is a serious thing. You can’t get into a fight with your with your… your husband or wife or partner, whatever, and call the cops to retaliate against them. This is, you know, we can’t burn up law enforcement resources. We’ve got to take these things seriously. And so we’re learning to do that now with… with the warning signs of… of active killers where we’re now so many… there’s law enforcement has responded to so many different situations like Virginia Tech, two different times when the roommate said, “Hey, this guy threatened to kill me.” And sure enough, the guy ended up killing his roommate and another person, friend of the roommates and then several other people. So it’s a learning curve. It’s not that law enforcement failed, it’s that they didn’t know because past experiences had not taught them. These… these… these events are now teaching us how to appropriately respond just like in 1999 during Columbine, a law enforcement would show up on scene and create a perimeter and wait for SWAT and you know, possibly wait for demands and that ended up being the wrong response because we didn’t… we law enforcement wasn’t trained for active shooter responses yet so. hopefully…

 

Rodney Andreasen  

Yeah… Michael be a chef recently here in Florida. There was a thing was a 14 year old… 15 year old, was arrested and the cop showed up at the house and he was threatening his school. And his mother said he’s just a child. He wouldn’t do anything like that. But the cops took a serious and I think that that’s where we need to move in that direction. It’s just not… it’s not a game anymore.

 

Michael Julian  

No. 

 

Lawrence Borgens  

Rodney, I saw the body cam footage from one of the cops when they showed up at his house. And the moms talking and the kids were standing there and there’s two cops and they’re like, No, we’re arresting him. We’re taking them into you can go pick them up at juvenile hall.” And, you know, they didn’t mess around. He was making threats online, about going to school and I think either shooting the place up or killing someone specifically it was something like…

 

Michael Julian  

And… And that’s what happened with Cruz and Broward County at Marjorie Stillman High School. You know, he had been actually in Columbine as well, when the internet was fairly new that these guys were making online threats that were specific enough that people knew what was going on. And now, you know, like I say, you don’t yell fire in a theater and you don’t yell… you don’t say anything about a bomb on an airplane. It’s just unacceptable behavior, because now it’s got the weight behind it based on the fact that these things have actually happened after people made those claims. We’re learning our lessons, the hard way, unfortunately. Let me go back to real quick do a screen share on this. This report by the National Council of medical directors Institute or whatever, and this is something I want to talk about a little bit to support my thoughts on the fact that we’re just, we’re encompassing everybody for every problem they have now in the definition of mental illness. They say that mental illness plays an important but limited role in mass violence. And this is coming from the directors of mental health facilities. These guys spend their whole lives and education, getting educated on this stuff. They say it’s difficult to imagine them mentally ill… excuse me… mentally healthy person would deliberately kill multiple strangers. But that they’re lumping all mental illnesses together and then assuming the facts… assuming the acts that seem incomprehensible to the average person are due to mental illness. Well, clearly we have found out for instance, the shooter paddock, the Las Vegas Shooter had… we didn’t see any kind of mental illness symptoms and anything in his past. They go on to say that mass violence is caused by many social and psychological factors that interact in complex ways, that many, if not most, perpetrators aren’t… do not have a major psychiatric disorder. And I believe this is true, and that’s why I have a hard time swallowing this whole 67% is… is mental illness.

Now they… they… I will say that I don’t like what they talk about here. I think they’re being overly sympathetic to the mentally ill because they don’t want to, you know, spook them or or categorize them. However, they think that some of the things that we’re doing in schools are considered policy decisions. For instance, excessive security measures, including bulletproof building entrances, electronic door locks, metal detectors and panic rooms with video monitors. The use of school shooter drills, in some cases not announced in advance, which I completely agree with and we’re now seeing, thank god we’re starting to get enough press that show how stupid this is to scare the hell out of people. They may lead students and staff to believe that an active shooter is in occurring and can be psychologically traumatizing.

Now Lately in the last few months, we’ve seen a couple of instances, I think, one at a high rise office building in New York and the one at a school in Central California, where they did active shooter drills, and they didn’t tell anybody was happening. And I think that’s pretty… pretty irresponsible, frankly, because like I always say, I wouldn’t throw a baseball at someone’s face before I taught them how to catch it. And if you’re literally going to scare the hell out of somebody, and possibly traumatize them and of course, kids are much more easily traumatized. Just to teach them a lesson but then what if it actually does happen? They’re now going to go back to the trauma that they experienced in that situation, rather than going immediately to training that they learned in a calm state of mind so that they default to that training, which, you know, I think you guys would agree that’s probably just not a good idea. I think we need to train people how to respond in a calm setting so that they can… they can absorb it, digest it and make the proper impression rather than all of a sudden burst into a room full of people with you know, as though we’re an active shooter and scare the hell out of them because that’s where their… their default is going to go to that if it actually happens. They’re going to go back to that what you guys think about that?

 

Rodney Andreasen  

I agree. 100% there was an incident here in Florida about a year or so ago where they performed an unannounced drill, or they didn’t tell anybody and somebody basically they got hurt, I think, but they also are suing now or mental anguish on that and there’s been several others where people have been hurt. And what… what if you do walk in and do an unannounced drill? Somebody has a heart attack who’s responsible? Yeah, it’s happened

 

Michael Julian  

that it has been heart attacks. There’s been you know, people in the in the office building next door that didn’t know was happening and called police. And I’ll tell you, we’re not gonna wanna… cops are not going to be real happy if they show up to a false alarm that they could have been advised about that there was training going on. So that is not that is not conducive to a healthy relationship with law enforcement and we certainly want them on our side. Guys, we need to start wrapping up we’re right at the one hour mark. I will do a better job at getting my… my facts condensed into one location so when I screen share you don’t see so much scrolling up and down but we’re learning this podcast thing as we go. I don’t know what lessons we may have learned from this Odessa Midland Texas thing. We did see that this one lasted longer than 10 minutes and 10 minutes is what we talked about is what we want to have our mindset is we will last 10 minutes no matter what it takes. But again, this… this is par for the course when it goes to a roving or mobile active shooter where they’re going from one location to the next. Those typically do last longer than 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, next week, we will probably have some new content. These things just are happening more and more often. And I… I… you know, I know you guys feel the same way I do. It’s, we have got to get this training and this knowledge out there. Because as we’re seeing with people that like you, like kids in school that had some kind of training, they reacted, which is what we tell people to do. You react in a way that is not a victim mentality, it’s a survival mentality. So the ALIVE Active Shooter Training program for any new viewers is an in person course. It’s typically two to three hours. There’s also an online course. The book I wrote last year was published called 10 Minutes to Live: Surviving an Active Shooter Using ALIVE and our presentations can be given anywhere now have been given different all over the world. That information can be found at www.activeshootersurvivaltraining.com and information on any of those programs can be found. Guys, I want to thank you again Ben Gotthard, Rodney Andreasen, Mark Gillespie and Lawrence Borgens, my co hosts,  as always, it is a pleasure to spend this hour with you fine gentlemen. And, unfortunately, I will see you again in a week. When we do this again, our obviously we would be thrilled to just jump on a zoom call and talk about life without this sort of thing. And one day if we’re successful, we will be able to do that. But for now, there is a need for this training. Any training is good. Clearly, we’d like the ALIVE Active Shooter Training training better. We believe it’s the best, but any training is better than no training. So, gentlemen, anybody have anything to add? before we sign off?

 

Mark Gillespie  

I’d like to add one thing. You don’t need training. If you see something, say something. That is I think one of the best preventive measures to seeing these things happen in the future.

 

Michael Julian  

That’s a good point. And you know, we don’t talk enough about prevention, because our program covers a little bit of it. But what we want people to know how to do is react and respond when these happen. But I believe you’re right, we should probably devote an entire show to recognizing the warning signs, and then opening your damn mouth and saying something to somebody so that then you can actually deal with the issue. And if that means talking to somebody, a kid or an adult, before this happens, being sympathetic to their situation and listening to them, and letting them vent. I certainly think that some of these things could be averted. So thank you, gentlemen, again for your time. I appreciate you very much, and I look forward to seeing you next week at this time.

 

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